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Post by saxon on Jun 17, 2021 19:50:24 GMT
If a player bats, say cleanup, does his results change?
If they bat leadoff, does his approach/results change?
How about if they hit in front of or behind a particular player, or if they bat in front of the pitcher?
If an aggressive player is told to take more pitches, work a count, etc, does it make them better or worse?
If a patient player is told to be more aggressive, does it help or hurt them?
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Post by nyf on Jun 17, 2021 20:14:17 GMT
I would have to say Yes Yes Yes Maybe Maybe  |
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Post by saxon on Jun 17, 2021 20:15:32 GMT
A few "splits"...
Dom Smith:
Overall: .246 average; .695 OPS;
batting 3rd: .283 average; .846 OPS;
batting 4th: .180 average; .572 OPS;
batting 5th: .258 average; .700 OPS;
Pete Alonso:
Overall: .253 ave; .800 OPS;
batting 3rd: .300 ave; .914 OPS;
batting 4th: .238 ave; .746 OPS;
Amed Rosario:
Batting leadoff: .091 ave; .182 OPS;
Batting 2nd: .346 ave; .854 OPS: (note: immediately in front of Jose Ramirez);
batting 6th: .256 ave; .720 OPS;
Overall: .282 ave; .739 OPS; (was hitting .195 ave; .589 OPS prior to moving into the 2 hole);
Part of the reason why I mention Rosario, other than he's my current favorite ex-Met, is that he appears to be seeing the benefit of hitting in front of Jose Ramirez...Guess what is missing from Francisco Lindor's at bats this year? Jose Ramirez...
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Post by saxon on Jun 17, 2021 20:24:53 GMT
A little more on Alonso, his best career numbers have been batting 2nd...
(Prior splits were 2021 only, the following are his "career" splits):
Batting 2nd: .275/.375/.607/.981
Batting 3rd: .239/.347/.482/.829
Batting 4th: .237/.315/.511/.826 (lowest OBP, maybe too aggressive as a cleanup hitter)
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Post by saxon on Jun 17, 2021 20:31:02 GMT
A little more on Alonso, his best career numbers have been batting 2nd... (Prior splits were 2021 only, the following are his "career" splits): Batting 2nd: .275/.375/.607/.981 Batting 3rd: .239/.347/.482/.829 Batting 4th: .237/.315/.511/.826 (lowest OBP, maybe too aggressive as a cleanup hitter) batting 6th: .253/.351/.590/.941; also had a few at bats batting 5th, but overall the majority of his at bats were: 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th and then 5th & a handful of PH appearances elsewhere |
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Post by CMF on Jun 26, 2021 12:43:27 GMT
Absolutely approach and batting order can impact results. By results I mean team results. When putting together a lineup you have to group together the best hitters, who you think have the best chance of scoring some runs. The lighter hitters cannot be mixed in with the better hitters as you want to try and create some momentum among the better hitters as that is the best chance for runs. And the hitters at or near the top get more at bats over a season so logically if the better hitters get more opportunities the team should score more runs.
I don't live and die with the old thinking that your slugger has to hit 4th. I would put the hitters with the best averages and highest OBP at the top. Batting average still means something to me and I think the most important offensive stat is OBP. If you are consistently getting men on base, you are putting pressure on the other pitcher and your chances of scoring are better whether that's through a hit, walk, error. And strikeouts still matter to me.
Everyone knows offense is hard enough to cone by this season, players who strike out a lot aren't helping that cause.
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Post by Admin on Jun 26, 2021 15:38:57 GMT
Absolutely approach and batting order can impact results. By results I mean team results. When putting together a lineup you have to group together the best hitters, who you think have the best chance of scoring some runs. The lighter hitters cannot be mixed in with the better hitters as you want to try and create some momentum among the better hitters as that is the best chance for runs. And the hitters at or near the top get more at bats over a season so logically if the better hitters get more opportunities the team should score more runs. I don't live and die with the old thinking that your slugger has to hit 4th. I would put the hitters with the best averages and highest OBP at the top. Batting average still means something to me and I think the most important offensive stat is OBP. If you are consistently getting men on base, you are putting pressure on the other pitcher and your chances of scoring are better whether that's through a hit, walk, error. And strikeouts still matter to me. Everyone knows offense is hard enough to cone by this season, players who strike out a lot aren't helping that cause. Imagine if today's approach to lineups were used on the 1986 Mets team...You'd have Keith Hernandez batting leadoff with either Gary Carter or Daryl Strawberry batting 2nd...and Mookie/Dykstra/Strawberry/Backman would probably get the brakes put on them in regards to stealing bases; none of them were achieving the 80% success rate that they want before allowing the green light 1986 NY Mets Stats |
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Post by brianstark on Jun 26, 2021 23:42:23 GMT
Approach, yes.
Lineup position? Possibly, depending on the player.
Position can affect approach, so in that way they may be tied together.
Lineup position also affects the number of opportunities, obviously the lead off hitter will get more chances just because of his spot in the lineup. This is why, for example, Nimmo is a good candidate for leadoff, whether you particularly like him or not. He is a high OBP hitter with decent SLG. He may not have Vince Coleman speed, but Vince Coleman could not get on base 40% of the time, either. If he could have, he would be in the Hall of Fame.
Approach however can also be influenced by situation. Down one, leading off the inning? Your job is to get on base. Tie game, late? Maybe look to jack one. Guy in scoring position, late innings, tie game, no outs? Get 'im over.
The problem today is that the approach nowadays is get a cookie and launch angle that SOB outta here. Get a good pitcher line Jake, or Max, or *shudder* Bauer, and they can make mincemeat out of you.
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Post by thomasam on Jun 28, 2021 2:44:05 GMT
The 1986 reshuffling is interesting. I think you could still make a case for Dykstra/Mookie leading off because of relative speed, even with SB being a smaller part of the game now. It would be hard to justify not batting Keith 2nd and Strawberry 3rd though.
The question really is do players have inherent skills that dictate their lineup position or does lineup position make a player adjust the approach. I think some players are born leadoff guys or cleanup hitters but others probably make adjustments depending on where they're hitting.
Going back to 1986 it's just astounding how much the game has changed. There aren't many players with only 1 HR with significant playing time in a season. They truly had one goal: to get on base. There were a lot of those players throughout the league back then. Both the Mets and Astros had lots of players with single-digit HR totals.
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Post by brianstark on Jul 2, 2021 0:29:52 GMT
It's become a bastardization of the Bill James model. Sit around and wait for the bit hit. It's like the 40s all over again.
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Post by saxon on Aug 8, 2021 15:11:18 GMT
with all the political correctness going on with teams changing names...
I think that to honor the Mets that the Mets should change their names to something more approprate:
The NY Flounders
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Post by saxon on Sept 3, 2021 19:05:51 GMT
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Post by saxon on Sept 3, 2021 19:10:35 GMT
in "old school" baseball, Nimmo would be a #2 or a #3 hitter, not a leadoff guy...great OBP and handles the bat well with 2 strikes, but just doesn't score often enough or run fast enough to bat leadoff on a good team...IMO, he's somewhere between a Keith Hernandez type of #3 hitter and a Paul Lo Duca type of #2 hitter (except neither of them struck out as often as Nimmo, and Nimmo has better speed than either of them, but not "leadoff" hitter speed)
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Post by saxon on Aug 30, 2024 22:23:23 GMT
in "old school" baseball, Nimmo would be a #2 or a #3 hitter, not a leadoff guy...great OBP and handles the bat well with 2 strikes, but just doesn't score often enough or run fast enough to bat leadoff on a good team...IMO, he's somewhere between a Keith Hernandez type of #3 hitter and a Paul Lo Duca type of #2 hitter (except neither of them struck out as often as Nimmo, and Nimmo has better speed than either of them, but not "leadoff" hitter speed) | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th |
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| 4 Players | 9 Players | 9 Players | 10 Players | 10 Players | 11 Players | 13 Players | 12 Players | 12 Players | | Lindor-91 Nimmo- Taylor- Stewart- | Nimmo-48 Marte-28 Alonso-24 Lindor-13 Vientos-13 Bader-3 Iglesias-3 Taylor-1 Stewart-1 | Martinez-51 Nimmo-30 Lindor-29 Alonso-14 Alvarez-4 Winker-3 Vientos-1 Marte-1 Stewart-1 | Alonso-85 Martinez-28 Alvarez-4 Stewart-4 Baty-3 Winker-3 Nimmo-3 McNeil-2 Vientos-1 Taylor-1 | Marte-27 Vientos-21 Stewart-21 Baty-13 Martinez-13 Alvarez-10 Alonso-9 McNeil-9 Winker-7 Taylor-4 | Vientos-28 McNeil-21 Taylor-18 Marte-13 Alvarez-11 Stewart-10 Iglesias-9 Torrens-7 Baty-7 Winker-5 | McNeil-31 Bader-22 Iglesias-18 Alvarez-18 Vientos-15 Taylor-13 Torrens-5 Baty-4 Gamel-3 Stewart-2 | McNeil-38 Bader-21 Baty-16 Alvarez-15 Taylor-12 Iglesias-12 Torrens-7 Wendle-4 Gamel-3 Stewart-3 | Bader-45 Nido-25 Narvaez-19 McNeil-10 Taylor-9 Torrens-9 Wendle-5 Iglesias-4 Stewart-3 Gamel-2 |
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original TableGenerated 8/30/2024. |
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Post by saxon on Aug 30, 2024 22:26:20 GMT
That didn't turn out quite the way that I hoped it would...
I was trying to point out that the Mets have done a lot of experimenting with moving guys around in the order...
by the way, Nimmo batted leadoff 39 times...but for whatever reason, the chart went all wanky with 39 in there so I figured that I would un-wanky the chart by taking the number out (we all know that he batted leadoff most of his career)
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